3. Questions on the Lost 116 Pages
October 6, 20242. Joseph Smith practiced treasure digging with a seer stone
October 7, 2024
Joseph Smith Treasure Digging Flowchart
This and other flowcharts were my attempt to create an "if-then" type analysis or flowchart. I wanted to consider some or the logical reasoning and justification used for Joseph Smith participating in treasure digging and practicing folk magic out to its potential conclusions.
Instructions. I've set this page up such that anyone can go through the same pathways that I went through while trying to figure out the conclusions of each path. To do so, begin at the start and read through the questions and then hit the button "yes" or "no" and the page will jump to the next question in the sequence.
You can also view it as a image below.
Q1: Start Here: Question 1
Joseph Smith claimed he could see hidden treasure when he put his seer stone in a hat, that the treasure was guarded by guardian spirits and that it was "becoming slippery" whenever the dig got close.
Can one really see hidden treasure by looking at a stone in a hat, have guardian spirits over the treasure, and for the treasure to become slippery and move?
Sources & Learn More References
Q2: Does God Approve?
Does God approve of certain individual using a seer power to see hidden treasure when they put a seer stone in a hat, report on treasure guarded by guardian spirits and treasure does "become slippery" at times during a treasure dig?
Q3: Should we follow magical thinking and the occult?
Add in text on how this is part of magical thinking and the occult.
Q2A &B: Further Discussion and Thoughts Along This Path
If God did approve at this at one time, but no longer approves of it now, what changed? What evidence do we have that God approved of treasure hunting with a seer stone? What evidence do we have that God changed his mind?
If God never approved of this, why does God allow his prophets to do something He directly disapproves? Further, why would God direct to use an unholy or disapproved method to both treasure hunt and translate the Book of Mormon?
Also, by what evidence can we hold that treasure digging is true?
Q3B: The Church and Scriptures have taught against magic and the occult. Is the church wrong?
Flesh this out.
Q3A: Further Discussion & Thoughts Along this Path.
Discussion: If God approves of magical thinking and the occult, why does it appear the church and scriptures have taught against it? If God approves of these methods why shouldn't we follow these things?
Q3C: Further Discussion & Thoughts Along this Path.
If the church and scriptures have taught against magic and the occult, however God approves of these things, then the church is an unreliable teacher of truth and other teaching should be suspect. Also this begs the question whether we should begin to follow this and other magical thinking that Joseph Smith followed.
Q3D: Did Something Change?
This brings up slew of new questions: Did something change? Was it a true fact right up to the point Joseph died? Is it true, but evil? And if it is true, but evil, doesn't that have bearing on Joseph Smith using these methods to translate the Book of Mormon? Is treasure digging using a magic stone not within the realms of the magic and occult spoken out against by the church?
Q4: Is there any evidence to hold this belief?
Text here.
Q4A: Is this a baseless assertion?
If there is no evidence to hold this belief, is this nothing more than a baseless assertion? Should baseless assertions have any merit in this circumstance?
Q4B: What evidence?
What evidence do you have to hold this position? Can it be found within standard teachings available to members of the church?
Q5: Then Joseph Smith was incorrectly claiming things he saw in his seer stone were true, but these were false.
So Joseph claimed to be a seer while treasure digging, but this was false. Or in other words, Joseph was a false seer. Did Joseph Smith believe his abilities were legitimate?
Q5A: Then Joseph Smith was a fraud and a conman.
Joseph never disavowed his claims regarding treasure digging. He merely stopped. Should we trust a seer who was a fraud and conman who never disavowed his past falsehoods?
Q6A: Why does this not make Joseph Smith suspect?
If this does not make Joseph Smith suspect, then what is the justification? Why does the church never share the justification or where can we find the justificaiton?
Q6B: Then we should not trust the truth claims of Joseph Smith
The main truth-claim of Joseph Smith is that the LDS church is God's one true church. However if Joseph Smith's truth claims cannot be trusted, one of the main justifications for the church cannot stand. Paste in link to Gordon B. Hinckley quote.
Q5B: How does this relate back to God?
My main assumption moving forward along this path: Based on Joseph Smith's timeline, God never asked Joseph to stop. I assume if God asked Joseph to stop that Joseph would have stopped. So, if Joseph continued to believe in magic and treasure digging, God allows his prophets to continue in false actions.
Does God allow prophets to continue in harmful actions?
Q7: During all of God God’s and Moroni’s visits, could God have asked Joseph to stop being a treasure seer?
Beyond any general answers to prayers or other heavenly guidance, Joseph Smith claimed that he had multiple face to face encounters. This included a face to face meeting with God and Jesus. This also included meetings with the angel Moroni. These meeting all took place during the time Joseph Smith was using the seer stone as a treasure seer. He also helped as a treasure seer after the visits.
During these meeting or even during normal guidance, could God have asked Joseph to stop being a treasure seer?
Q7A: Is God all loving for all of his children?
Are we to assume that God is all loving for all of his children?
Q7B: Then God is not all powerful. The church is wrong on the very nature of God. Why trust the church for truth?
If the church is wrong on the very nature of God, then why should the church be trusted on anything?
Q8: Was treasure digging harmful to any involved?
Treasure digging was considered a con by many during Joseph Smith's time and is considered a con by nearly everyone today. A treasure dig took a lot of time, money, and work to do. It also often involved major ritualistic aspects, such as a blood sacrifice. Was this harmful to any involved?
Q8A: How does this relate back to God?
This means God could have easily stopped harm during conversations with Joseph, but chose not to. What does that leave us with? Maybe God must do harmful things out of love? Does this jive with church teaching on God? If not, why trust the church for truth? If it does, why isn't it taught by the church?
Q8C: Does God care about truth?
Text?
Q9: Does God care about truth?
The path leads to the conclusion that treasure digging was not harmful, but also was false and God was perfectly fine letting it continue when he could have easily told Joseph Smith to stop. Does God care about the truth?
Q9A: Is God all-loving for all of his children?
Text?
Q9B: Final conclusions on the nature of God
This path leads to the conclusion that God is one that doesn't care about truth. Why go to him for truth then? Also, does this make God a trickster God? The church teaches that God is the source of all truth, but clearly they are wrong. Why trust the church to teach about the truth?
Q9C: Final conclusions on the nature of God
This path leads to the conclusion that God is not all-loving. The church is wrong on the very nature of God. Why trust the church for truth?
Q10: Was treasure digging harmful?
Treasure digging was considered a con by many during Joseph Smith's time and is considered a con by nearly everyone today. A treasure dig took a lot of time, money, and work to do. It also often involved major ritualistic aspects, such as a blood sacrifice. Was this harmful to any involved?
Q11: Does God care about truth?
So treasure digging was not harmful, but also false and God was perfectly fine with letting it continue. Does God care about the truth?
Q11A: Could God have taught the truth?
During all of God's and Moroni's visits, could God have asked Joseph to stop being a treasure seer?
Q11B: Final Conclusion - What does that say about God and the church?
Then God is one that doesn't care about truth. Why go to Him for truth? Also, does this make God a trickster God? The church teaches that God is the source of all truth, but clearly they are wrong. Why trust the church for truth?
Q12: Final Considerations and Conclusions on this path related to the Church and God
Following this path means that God could have told the truth, but chose not to. Then God must withhold truth during personal conversations with Joseph out of love—even when Joseph was doing illegal activities, false actions, and incorrectly acting as a seer. What else must I believe about God for this path to work? What evidence do we have that Joseph's acting as a seer wasn't continuing to be false during the translation of the Book of Mormon and God didn't stop Joseph? Does this fit when the church claims God is the source of all truth? Also, it's unclear how this was loving for those caught in the false actions of Joseph.
